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虽源于印度但瑜伽不属于印度教——BKS Iyengar

2011-05-27

YOGA IS AN INDIAN HERITAGE, NOT A HINDU PROPERTY

TIMES NEWS NETWORK

MALINI NAIR

瑜伽非印度教财产

——瑜伽大师BKS Iyengar采访记

印度时报网马丽妮旎报道

You are being seen less and less on the international circuit. How did you agree to lead a yoga summit in China on such a large scale?

The government of India was keen to showcase yoga in China as a part of its celebration of the 60 years of friendship between the two countries. I am not keen to travel and teach abroad anymore but this is a significant summit because the two nations have cultural ties that go back thousands of years. So I agreed. It would have been tough to handle hundreds of yoga students on my own, so I asked to be allowed to take a team of senior teachers who would assist me. Slowly this team grew from one to 14 and included senior Iyengar teachers from other countries as well. And I believe that the numbers of those enrolled are growing by the day.

现在你的国际巡讲越来越少，您为什么会同意在中国领衔如此大规模的瑜伽峰会呢？

今年是中印建交60周年，印度政府热切希望将瑜伽展示作为纪念活动的一部分，来庆祝两国间的友谊。我已经不再热衷于海外旅行和教学，不过中印两国的文化纽带已历经数千年，因而这次峰会意义非同小可。所以我同意了。显然，我已不便于再单独执教数百学生，因此我要求举办方同意我带一个高级教练团队，可以适时辅助我教学。慢慢的，加入这个团队的Iyengar瑜伽高级教师成员从1人到了14人，除了印度，还来自其它国家。我相信这个队伍每天都在壮大。

What exactly will be the agenda of your teaching sessions at Guangzhou? Will it be aimed only at senior practitioners or novices as well?

I believe that there are a large number of yoga practitioners in China today. So it is not as if the subject is not known to them. But my emphasis will be on exactly how it should be propagated. For both those who know nothing about the subject as well as those who understand its real depth, this summit is going to be an eye-opener. I mean to show them how to start from scratch and aim for the ultimate. Asana and pranayama are all perceivable aspects of yoga practice, but there are other layers which are not that obvious.

These connect yoga to our life, our spiritual and moral health. Few talk about these aspects anymore — how yoga forms the link between the physical plane and the spiritual, how it moves from the periphery to the highest philosophical levels bringing balance to the mind…I think the responsibility is mine to show how you move from the body to the mind to the intelligence and finally to the consciousness and psychospiritual body. And it is a huge responsibility.

您在广州的明确教学议程（主题）是什么呢？主要针对高级学员吗？还是也包括初学者？

我知道在中国目前已有大量的瑜伽习练者，因此瑜伽对他们已不陌生。不过，我的教学重点将围绕应该如何恰当地传播瑜伽这一主题展开。无论是对瑜伽了解甚少还是知之弥深，这次峰会对他们而言都将大开眼界。我的意思是说，我将演示如何从起点一直走向至高点。瑜伽练习中，体式和呼吸控制法都是易于感知的部分，但还有其它无法一眼看透的层面。

这些深层次内容将瑜伽与我们的生活相连接，促进我们的精神与道德健康。这些方面已鲜有人提及了——瑜伽如何构建身心间的连接，如何从细枝末叶到高深的哲学层面，如何带来心灵平衡等等。我想我的责任在于为大家展示在瑜伽习练中如何从身到心到智性，最终到达意识和心理灵性的过程。责任真是重大。

China has its own ancient, indigenous practices similar to yoga, such as Tai Chi, that makes similar connections. Do you see a link in these systems?

Certainly. It will be easy to connect with the Chinese on these issues. They have for centuries been practicing physical regimens that have spiritual connections. For example, they have the concept of yin and yang which is parallel to what we call ida (consciousness) and pingala (self). We have several Chinese yoga students in India and Iyengar yoga teachers have been in China for a while now. So we have had an exchange of ideas between the two worlds. I look forward to the discussions with their masters.

中国本土有自己古老的构建身心连接的练习方式，和瑜伽相似，例如太极。您认为这些体系间有关联吗？

当然有关联。这些问题对中国人来说通俗易懂。数百年来，他们都在练习有精神作用的体育养生运动。比如说，他们有阴阳的概念，这和我们的左右脉（意识与自我）的说法相通。在印度，我们有来自中国的一些瑜伽学生，艾杨格瑜伽教练到中国教学也已有些时日。因而我们这两个世界之间已有所交流。这次，我期待和他们的大师一起对话。

You were the first to take yoga to the West where you have a vast following today. But do you find iteasier to explain its philosophy in the East?

I find that the East absorbs the yogic philosophy far better. Yoga is an emotional subject actually and the in the West they calculate from the head. On the other hand, the East banks on the intelligence of the heart. They are both strong in their own spheres. But I find that nations which are geographically centred in the world map — such as Russia and Africa — have the best of both approaches. They use the head as well as their heart to their advantage. Yoga teaches us to move from Kurukshetra to dharmakshetra and god knows that we need fewer Kurukshetras today!

您是将瑜伽带到西方的第一人，如今您在西方拥有大量的拥趸。不过，您是否发现在东方讲解瑜伽哲学相对容易呢？

我感觉东方人吸收瑜伽哲学远为优秀。瑜伽事实上属于情感，但西方人惯于从头脑逻辑出发。而另一方面，东方人则依赖于心智。东西方人在各自的领域内都很独到。不过，我发现世界地图上位于中心区域的国家地区——比如俄罗斯与非洲——对两者都颇为擅长。他们使用头脑和使用心智一样巧妙。瑜伽教导我们要从Kurukshetra走到Dhamakshetra，从冲突到圆融，今天我们已不再需要太多的冲突了！

There was a heated debate in the media over the Take Back Yoga movement started by the Hindu American Foundation in the US. Its stated intent is to reclaim the place of Hinduism in yoga. Do you subscribe to this?

Yoga is an Indian heritage, not a Hindu property. Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra, which forms the basis of the system, addresses all humanity not just Hindus. Just because yogis did not travel as widely as they do today does not imply that the practice belonged to one community or place. Patanjali calls yoga sarva bhauma, a universal culture. And yoga is an individual’s evolutionary journey as a sadhaka (seeker) from the body to the self. Where is the room for doubt here?

The argument against the Take Back Yoga movement is also that yogasanas find little mention inancient Hindu texts, that most of them are modern inventions that go back just two centuries. Life is dynamic and so is yoga. If I have an inquisitive mind why can’t I research yoga like the sciences and come up with my interpretation? As yoga practitioners, we investigate how we can oxygenate the cells of the body so they don’t die. The subject is so deep and dense that no matter how much we do we end up just scratching the surface. So why then should the study of yoga remain static? According to ancient texts, there are as many asanas as there are creatures in the world. If you ask where are they all listed, I say that as a nation that has been culturally disturbed time and again by invaders, we have lost a lot in the process.

不久前，由美籍印裔组成的印度教基金会发起“瑜伽回归运动”，在媒体上引发了热烈的反响，他们旨在恢复印度教教义在瑜伽中的地位。您同意他们这种做法吗？

瑜伽源于印度，但不是印度教的财产。架构瑜伽体系的经典，帕坦迦利的《瑜伽经》面向的是全人类而非印度教徒独享。仅仅因为古时的瑜伽行者不像如今这般四处旅行就认为瑜伽属于特定的区域或者团体，这是不对的。帕坦迦利称瑜伽“sarva bhauma”，是普世适用的修行。瑜伽是追寻者从身体到自我的进化之旅。这无容置疑！

与“ 瑜伽回归运动”理念的严重分歧还有，在印度教文献中很少提及瑜伽体式，绝大多数的瑜伽体式源于近两百年来的现代发明。生命流转不止，瑜伽也是如此。假如我热衷探索，为什么我不能像科学家那样对瑜伽做研究并得到我自己对瑜伽的阐述呢？瑜伽是如此深厚，不管我们做什么都还只仅仅触其皮毛。所以，瑜伽研究何须固步自封？据古老的文献，世界上有多少动物，就有多少瑜伽体式。如果你问我那些体式名单列在哪里，我只能说，印度文化在历史上不断被外来侵略者冲击，我们失去了很多。

Does it bother you that yoga is being marketed purely as a fitness regimen?

The fact is that yoga is open to interpretation. For instance, Patanjali talks of sexual yoga and if someone decides to reduce yoga to just that what can one do? I can’t blame people for exploiting its open-endedness. After all, in the 1950s when I was in the West trying to propagate yoga it would not have helped if I carried on about spiritualism and philosophy. So I connected with them in whatever way I could — by showing them the physical prowess that yoga brings. I lived only on bread and coffee those days, because there was hardly any vegetarian food available. They saw me teaching eight-nine hours a day on this diet and saw that I still had the strength to throw them over — so I had to stress on physicality. It was only after a decade that I slowly started talking about the intellect and the mind and consciousness. They were ready for it by then. So you see the market-driven yoga industry evolving into something more deep one day?

Yoga is being exploited and that is giving it a bad name. But, the spokes of the wheel go down and then they have to come up, don’t they? (laughs) It can’t get any worse so it has to get better. Today anyone can be called a yogacharya but people will see light someday, look for true gurus.

瑜伽正被市场化为一种纯粹的健身运动，您是否为之不安？

事实上，瑜伽的内涵从来就不是凝固不变的。比如说，帕坦迦利谈到了性爱瑜伽，如果有人因此就决意将瑜伽归结为只是性爱，别人能做什么呢？我不能责备人们对瑜伽的开发。毕竟，如果我在上世纪50年代到西方传播瑜伽的时候就抱着瑜伽的灵性与哲学层面不放，我不认为会有什么帮助。我只能通过我所能够使用的方式与他们建立起连接，那就是向他们展示瑜伽所能带来的卓越的身体技能。

那些日子我只以面包和咖啡果腹，因为几乎找不到素食。可是尽管如此，我还能坚持每天8-9小时的教学，我还有力气把他们摔开——所以，我不得不强调瑜伽的身体层面。之后也就10来年的功夫，我慢慢地开始讲授智性、心意和觉知力等内容，此时大家才准备好开始接受。你看，市场导向的瑜伽业有一天也会演进到更深刻的境地，是不是？

瑜伽正在被开发，这似乎不太好听。但是，既然轮子的辐条能向下转，那也必然会向上转吧，对不对？（大笑）不会再坏到哪了，只能越来越好。如今，谁都可以被称为瑜伽老师，但是将来有一天人们肯定会看到光明，它会引领他们去寻找真正的灵性上师（古鲁）。

There is talk of you retiring from active practice and this being your last international trip.

I have said that yes, but if I can still help those who are seeking knowledge, why not? I have been taking some classes for women because my daughter (Geeta) has not been keeping too well. So all applicants for yoga courses now ask for the days when I take the classes! I believe that at 93 I am still fresh in the subject. But yes, I don’t want to travel any more. The burden of expectations is too much on these trips and I don’t know how to just sit on the stage and watch.

有人说您将不再从事主动教学，这次峰会将是您的最后一次海外旅行，是真的吗？

是的，我以前说过类似的话。可是，如果我还能帮助那些渴求知识的人们，那又为何不做呢？我女儿姬妲有阵子身体不太舒服，我帮她带了几次女性瑜伽课。结果现在，我代课的日子，所有的学员都要求报名来参加！我相信在瑜伽面前，尽管我已年届93，我还犹如初学。当然，我不想再旅行了。每次巡讲都要承载太多大家的期盼，我也还没学会只是坐在台上四下张望。

You are grooming your granddaughter Abhijata as the inheritor of your legacy.

I see her as the perpetuator of this parampara. She catches on fast and I am teaching her how to keep the foundation stable so that the body can deal with any crisis without suffering. When I train her, there are 30-40 other students around so she becomes a tool to teach all of them as well! There are many changes happening around us in the world and she will have to deal with this different world in the coming decades. The computer age has changed our lives but it will also cause the body to degenerate faster from the inside. She will have to impart the knowledge of how to use yoga to stop this decay and bring balance back to our lives.

您正在培养你的孙女阿碧佳来继承您的事业，对吗？

对，我将她视为Iyengar瑜伽师承的永久保持者。她学得很快，我正在教她如何打好稳固的根基，这样，身体就可以从容应对种种危机而无碍。在我培训她的时候，她周围还有30-40位学生，所以，同时她也成了教育其他人的教材。世界有了这么多的变化，在将来的岁月里，她必须得学会应对这个日新月异的环境。电脑时代改变了我们的生活，但也会使身体从内向外更快退化。她将必须向大家传授知识，应用瑜伽来阻止这种衰退，从而让我们的生命回归于平衡之中。

虽源于印度 但瑜伽不属于印度教——BKS Iyengar

虽源于印度但瑜伽不属于印度教——BKS Iyengar